Lys. I am going to ask this favour of you, Socrates ; as is the more necessary because the two councillors disagree, and some one is in a manner still needed who will decide between them. Had they agreed, no arbiter would have been required. But as Laches has voted one way and Nicias another, I should like to hear with which of our two friends you agree.
Soc. What, Lysimachus, are you going to accept the opinion of the majority ?
Lys. Why, yes, Socrates ; what else am I to do ?
Soc. And would you do so too, Melesias ? If you were deliberating about the gymnastic training of your son, would you follow the advice of the majority of us, or the opinion of the one who had been trained and exercised under a skilful master ?
Melesias. The latter, Socrates ; as would surely be reasonable.
Soc. His one vote would be worth more than the vote of all us four ? Mel. Certainly.
Soc. And for this reason, as I imagine, — because a good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers ?
Mel. To be sure.
Soc. Must we not then first of all ask, whether there is any one of us who has knowledge of that about which we are deliberating ? If there is, let us take his advice, though he be one only, and not mind the rest ; if there is not, let us seek further counsel. Is this a slight matter about which you and Lysimachus are deliberating ? Are you not risking the greatest of your possessions ? For children are your riches ; and upon their turning out well or ill depends the whole order of their father’s house.
Mel. That is true.
Soc. Great care, then, is required in this matter ?
Mel. Certainly.
Soc. Suppose, as I was just now saying, that we were considering, or wanting to consider, who was the best trainer. Should we not select him who knew and had practised the art, and had the best teachers ?
Mel. I think that we should.
Soc. But would there not arise a prior question about the nature of the art of which we want to find the masters ?
Mel. I do not understand.
Soc. Let me try to make my meaning plainer then. I do not think that we have as yet decided what that is about which we are consulting, when we ask which of us is or is not skilled in the art, and has or has not had a teacher of the art.
Nic. Why, Socrates, is not the question whether young men ought or ought not to learn the art of fighting in armour ?
Soc. Yes, Nicias ; but there is also a prior question, which I may illustrate in this way : When a person considers about applying a medicine to the eyes, would you say that he is consulting about the medicine or about the eyes ?
Nic. About the eyes.
Soc. And when he considers whether he shall set a bridle on a horse and at what time, he is thinking of the horse and not of the bridle ?
Nic. True.
Soc. And in a word, when he considers anything for the sake of another thing, he thinks of the end and not of the means ?
Nic. Certainly.
Soc. And when you call in an adviser, you should see whether he too is skilful in the accomplishment of the end which you have in view ?
Nic. Most true.
Soc. And at present we have in view some knowledge, of which the end is the soul of youth ?
Nic. Yes.
Soc. And we are enquiring, Which of us is skilful or successful in the treatment of the soul, and which of us has had good teachers ?
La. Well but, Socrates ; did you never observe that some persons, who have had no teachers, are more skilful than those who have, in some things ?
Soc. Yes, Laches, I have observed that ; but you would not be very willing to trust them if they only professed to be masters of their art, unless they could show some proof of their skill or excellence in one or more works.
La. That is true.
Soc. And therefore, Laches and Nicias, as Lysimachus and Melesias, in their anxiety to improve the minds of their sons, have asked our advice about them, we too should tell them who our teachers were, if we say that we have had any, and prove them to be in the first place men of merit and experienced trainers of the minds of youth and also to have been really our teachers. Or if any of us says that he has no teacher, but that he has works of his own to show ; then he should point out to them what Athenians or strangers, bond or free, he is generally acknowledged to have improved. But if he can show neither teachers nor works, then he should tell them to look out for others ; and not run the risk of spoiling the children of friends, and thereby incurring the most formidable accusation which can be brought against any one by those nearest to him. As for myself, Lysimachus and Melesias, I am the first to confess that I have never had a teacher of the art of virtue ; although I have always from my earliest youth desired to have one. But I am too poor to give money to the Sophists, who are the only professors of moral improvement ; and to this day I have never been able to discover the art myself, though I should not be surprised if Nicias or Laches may have discovered or learned it ; for they are far wealthier than I am, and may therefore have learnt of others. And they are older too ; so that they have had more time to make the discovery. And I really believe that they are able to educate a man ; for unless they had been confident in their own knowledge, they would never have spoken thus decidedly of the pursuits which are advantageous or hurtful to a young man. I repose confidence in both of them ; but I am surprised to find that they differ from one another. And therefore, Lysimachus, as Laches suggested that you should detain me, and not let me go until I answered, I in turn earnestly beseech and advise you to detain Laches and Nicias, and question them. I would have you say to them : Socrates avers that he has no knowledge of the matter — he is unable to decide which of you speaks truly ; neither discoverer nor student is he of anything of the kind. But you, Laches and Nicias, should each of you tell us who is the most skilful educator whom you have ever known ; and whether you invented the art yourselves, or learned of another ; and if you learned, who were your respective teachers, and who were their brothers in the art ; and then, if you are too much occupied in politics to teach us yourselves, let us go to them, and present them with gifts, or make interest with them, or both, in the hope that they may be induced to take charge of our children and of yours ; and then they will not grow up inferior, and disgrace their ancestors. But if you are yourselves original discoverers in that field, give us some proof of your skill. Who are they who, having been inferior persons, have become under your care good and noble ? For if this is your first attempt at education, there is a danger that you may be trying the experiment, not on the “vile corpus” of a Carian slave, but on your own sons, or the sons of your friend, and, as the proverb says, “break the large vessel in learning to make pots.” Tell us then, what qualities you claim or do not claim. Make them tell you that, Lysimachus, and do not let them off.