Socrates : Indeed, Eudicus, there are some points in what Hippias was just now saying of Homer, (363b) about which I should like to question him. For I used to hear your father Apemantus say that Homer’s Iliad was a finer poem than the Odyssey, and just as much finer as ACHILLES was finer than Odysseus for he said that one of these poems was made with Odysseus ; the other with ACHILLES as its subject. So that is a point about which, if it is agreeable to Hippias, I should like to ask — what he thinks about these two men, which of them he says is the better ; (363c) for he has told us in his exhibition many other things of sorts about Homer and other poets. LESSER HIPPIAS
Socrates : That is splendid, Hippias ! Your reputation will be a monument of wisdom for the city of Elis and your parents. (364b) But now what do you say about ACHILLES and Odysseus ? Which do you say is the better and in what respect ? For when there were many of us in the room, and you were making your exhibition, I could not keep up with what you were saying : for I hesitated to ask questions, because there was a great crowd in the room, also for fear of hindering your exhibition by doing so ; but now, since we are fewer and Eudicus here urges me to question you, speak and tell us clearly (364c) what you said about these two men ; how did you distinguish them ? LESSER HIPPIAS
Hippias : Why I am glad, Socrates, to explain to you still more clearly what I say about these and others also. For I say that Homer made ACHILLES the bravest man of those who went to Troy, and Nestor the wisest, and Odysseus the wiliest. LESSER HIPPIAS
Socrates : That is excellent. For when you said that the poet made ACHILLES the bravest of men, and Nestor the wisest, I thought I understood what you meant ; (364e) but when you said that he made Odysseus the wiliest, to tell you the truth, I do not in the least know what you mean by that. Now tell me, and perhaps it may result in my understanding better. Has not Homer made ACHILLES wily ? LESSER HIPPIAS
Hippias : Not at all, Socrates ; he made him most simple ; for in “The Prayers,” when he depicts them talking with one another, he makes ACHILLES say to Odysseus : LESSER HIPPIAS
In these lines he makes plain the character of each of the men, that ACHILLES is true and simple, and Odysseus wily and false for he represents ACHILLES as saying these lines to Odysseus. LESSER HIPPIAS
Socrates : No, for perhaps you are not using your art of memory ; for you evidently think it is not necessary ; but I will remind you. Do you remember that you said that ACHILLES was true (369b) and Odysseus was false and wily ? LESSER HIPPIAS
Socrates : Do you now, then, perceive that the same man has been found to be false and true, so that if Odysseus was false, he becomes also true, and if ACHILLES was true, he becomes also false, and the two men are not different from one another, nor opposites, but alike ? LESSER HIPPIAS
Hippias : Socrates, you are always making intricate arguments of this sort, and, picking out the most difficult part of the argument, you stick to it in detail, (369c) and you do not discuss the whole subject with which the argument deals ; for now, if you like, I will prove to you by satisfactory argument based on many pieces of evidence, that Homer made ACHILLES better than Odysseus and free from falsehood, and Odysseus crafty and a teller of many falsehoods and inferior to ACHILLES. And, if you like, do you oppose argument to argument, maintaining that the other is better ; and these gentlemen here will determine which of us speaks better. LESSER HIPPIAS
(369d) Socrates : Hippias, I do not doubt that you are wiser than I ; but it is always my custom to pay attention when anyone is speaking, especially when the speaker seems to me to be wise ; and because I desire to learn what he means, I question him thoroughly and examine and compare the things he says, in order that I may learn. But if the speaker seems to me to be worthless, I neither ask questions nor care what he says. And by this you will recognize whom I regard as wise ; for you will find me persistently asking such a man questions about what he says, (369e) in order that I may profit by learning something. And so now I noticed when you were speaking, that in the lines which you repeated just now to show that ACHILLES speaks to Odysseus as to a deceiver, it seems to me very strange, if what you say is true, (370a) that Odysseus the wily is nowhere found to have spoken falsely, but ACHILLES is found to be a wily sort of person, according to your argument ; at any rate, he speaks falsely. For he begins by speaking these lines which you just quoted : LESSER HIPPIAS
Hippias : That is because you do not look at it aright, Socrates. For the falsehoods that ACHILLES utters, he utters evidently not by design, but against his will, since he is forced by the misfortune of the army to remain and give assistance ; but Odysseus utters his falsehoods voluntarily and by design. LESSER HIPPIAS
Socrates : That you say ACHILLES did not speak falsely by design, he who was not only a deceiver, but was also such a cheat and plotter, as Homer has represented him, that he is seen to be so much more clever than Odysseus in deceiving him unnoticed without difficulty, that he dared to contradict himself in his presence, and Odysseus did not notice it ; at any rate Odysseus does not appear (371b) to have said anything to him which indicates that he noticed his falsehood. LESSER HIPPIAS
Hippias : No, I do not agree, Socrates ; (371e) but in this case also ACHILLES was induced by the goodness of his heart to say to Ajax something different from what he had said to Odysseus ; whereas Odysseus, when he speaks the truth always speaks with design, and when he speaks falsehood likewise. LESSER HIPPIAS
Socrates : Then Odysseus, as it seems, is better than ACHILLES. LESSER HIPPIAS
Socrates : “And,” he will say, “did the stranger from Elis say also that for ACHILLES it was beautiful to be buried later than his parents, and for his grandfather Aeacus, and all the others who were born of gods, (293a) and for the gods themselves ?” GREATER HIPPIAS
Soc. I wish you would frankly tell me, Ion, what I am going to ask of you : When you produce the greatest effect upon the audience in the recitation of some striking passage, such as the apparition of Odysseus leaping forth on the floor, recognized by the suitors and casting his arrows at his feet, or the description of ACHILLES rushing at Hector, or the sorrows of Andromache, Hecuba, or Priam, — are you in your right mind ? Are you not carried out of yourself, and does not your soul in an ecstasy seem to be among the persons or places of which you are speaking, whether they are in Ithaca or in Troy or whatever may be the scene of the poem ? ION
Many of the audience cheered and applauded this. And I felt at first giddy and faint, as if I had received a blow from the hand of an expert boxer, when I heard his words and the sound of the cheering ; and to confess the truth, I wanted to get time to think what the meaning of the poet really was. So I turned to Prodicus and called him. Prodicus, I said, Simonides is a countryman of yours, and you ought to come to his aid. I must appeal to you, like the river Scamander in Homer, who, when beleaguered by ACHILLES, summons the Simois to aid him, saying : PROTAGORAS
Someone will say : And are you not ashamed, Socrates, of a course of life which is likely to bring you to an untimely end ? To him I may fairly answer : There you are mistaken : a man who is good for anything ought not to calculate the chance of living or dying ; he ought only to consider whether in doing anything he is doing right or wrong — acting the part of a good man or of a bad. Whereas, according to your view, the heroes who fell at Troy were not good for much, and the son of Thetis above all, who altogether despised danger in comparison with disgrace ; and when his goddess mother said to him, in his eagerness to slay Hector, that if he avenged his companion Patroclus, and slew Hector, he would die himself — “Fate,” as she said, “waits upon you next after Hector” ; he, hearing this, utterly despised danger and death, and instead of fearing them, feared rather to live in dishonor, and not to avenge his friend. “Let me die next,” he replies, “and be avenged of my enemy, rather than abide here by the beaked ships, a scorn and a burden of the earth.” Had ACHILLES any thought of death and danger ? For wherever a man’s place is, whether the place which he has chosen or that in which he has been placed by a commander, there he ought to remain in the hour of danger ; he should not think of death or of anything, but of disgrace. And this, O men of Athens, is a true saying. APOLOGY
Crat. You are right, Socrates, in saying that I have made a study of these matters, and I might possibly convert you into a disciple. But I fear that the opposite is more probable, and I already find myself moved to say to you what ACHILLES in the “Prayers” says to Ajax — CRATYLUS
Love will make men dare to die for their beloved-love alone ; and women as well as men. Of this, Alcestis, the daughter of Pelias, is a monument to all Hellas ; for she was willing to lay down her life on behalf of her husband, when no one else would, although he had a father and mother ; but the tenderness of her love so far exceeded theirs, that she made them seem to be strangers in blood to their own son, and in name only related to him ; and so noble did this action of hers appear to the gods, as well as to men, that among the many who have done virtuously she is one of the very few to whom, in admiration of her noble action, they have granted the privilege of returning alive to earth ; such exceeding honour is paid by the gods to the devotion and virtue of love. But Orpheus, the son of Oeagrus, the harper, they sent empty away, and presented to him an apparition only of her whom he sought, but herself they would not give up, because he showed no spirit ; he was only a harp-player, and did not dare like Alcestis to die for love, but was contriving how he might enter hades alive ; moreover, they afterwards caused him to suffer death at the hands of women, as the punishment of his cowardliness. Very different was the reward of the true love of ACHILLES towards his lover Patroclus — his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for ACHILLES was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes ; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). And greatly as the gods honour the virtue of love, still the return of love on the part of the beloved to the lover is more admired and valued and rewarded by them, for the lover is more divine ; because he is inspired by God. Now ACHILLES was quite aware, for he had been told by his mother, that he might avoid death and return home, and live to a good old age, if he abstained from slaying Hector. Nevertheless he gave his life to revenge his friend, and dared to die, not only in his defence, but after he was dead Wherefore the gods honoured him even above Alcestis, and sent him to the Islands of the Blest. These are my reasons for affirming that Love is the eldest and noblest and mightiest of the gods ; and the chiefest author and giver of virtue in life, and of happiness after death. SYMPOSIUM
I was astonished at her words, and said : “Is this really true, O thou wise Diotima ?” And she answered with all the authority of an accomplished sophist : “Of that, Socrates, you may be assured ; — think only of the ambition of men, and you will wonder at the senselessness of their ways, unless you consider how they are stirred by the love of an immortality of fame. They are ready to run all risks greater far than they would have for their children, and to spend money and undergo any sort of toil, and even to die, for the sake of leaving behind them a name which shall be eternal. Do you imagine that Alcestis would have died to save Admetus, or ACHILLES to avenge Patroclus, or your own Codrus in order to preserve the kingdom for his sons, if they had not imagined that the memory of their virtues, which still survives among us, would be immortal ? Nay,” she said, “I am persuaded that all men do all things, and the better they are the more they do them, in hope of the glorious fame of immortal virtue ; for they desire the immortal. SYMPOSIUM
I have told you one tale, and now I must tell you another, which is worth hearing, ‘Of the doings and sufferings of the enduring man’, while he was on the expedition. One morning he was thinking about something which he could not resolve ; he would not give it up, but continued thinking from early dawn until noon — there he stood fixed in thought ; and at noon attention was drawn to him, and the rumour ran through the wondering crowd that Socrates had been standing and thinking about something ever since the break of day. At last, in the evening after supper, some Ionians out of curiosity (I should explain that this was not in winter but in summer), brought out their mats and slept in the open air that they might watch him and see whether he would stand all night. There he stood until the following morning ; and with the return of light he offered up a prayer to the sun, and went his way. I will also tell, if you please — and indeed I am bound to tell of his courage in battle ; for who but he saved my life ? Now this was the engagement in which I received the prize of valour : for I was wounded and he would not leave me, but he rescued me and my arms ; and he ought to have received the prize of valour which the generals wanted to confer on me partly on account of my rank, and I told them so, (this, again Socrates will not impeach or deny), but he was more eager than the generals that I and not he should have the prize. There was another occasion on which his behaviour was very remarkable — in the flight of the army after the battle of Delium, where he served among the heavy-armed — I had a better opportunity of seeing him than at Potidaea, for I was myself on horseback, and therefore comparatively out of danger. He and Laches were retreating, for the troops were in flight, and I met them and told them not to be discouraged, and promised to remain with them ; and there you might see him, Aristophanes, as you describe, just as he is in the streets of Athens, stalking like a and rolling his eyes, calmly contemplating enemies as well as friends, and making very intelligible to anybody, even from a distance, that whoever attacked him would be likely to meet with a stout resistance ; and in this way he and his companion escaped — for this is the sort of man who is never touched in war ; those only are pursued who are running away headlong. I particularly observed how superior he was to Laches in presence of mind. Many are the marvels which I might narrate in praise of Socrates ; most of his ways might perhaps be paralleled in another man, but his absolute unlikeness to any human being that is or ever has been is perfectly astonishing. You may imagine Brasidas and others to have been like ACHILLES ; or you may imagine Nestor and Antenor to have been like Perides ; and the same may be said of other famous men, but of this strange being you will never be able to find any likeness, however remote, either among men who now are or who ever have been — other than that which I have already suggested of Silenus and the satyrs ; and they represent in a figure not only himself, but his words. For, although I forgot to mention this to you before, his words are like the images of Silenus which open ; they are ridiculous when you first hear them ; he clothes himself in language that is like the skin of the wanton satyr — for his talk is of pack-asses and smiths and cobblers and curriers, and he is always repeating the same things in the same words, so that any ignorant or inexperienced person might feel disposed to laugh at him ; but he who opens the bust and sees what is within will find that they are the only words which have a meaning in them, and also the most divine, abounding in fair images of virtue, and of the widest comprehension, or rather extending to the whole duty of a good and honourable man. SYMPOSIUM
Then we will once more entreat Homer and the other poets not to depict ACHILLES, who is the son of a goddess, first lying on his side, then on his back, and then on his face ; then starting up and sailing in a frenzy along the shores of the barren sea ; now taking the sooty ashes in both his hands and pouring them over his head, or weeping and wailing in the various modes which Homer has delineated. Nor should he describe Priam, the kinsman of the gods, as praying and beseeching, THE REPUBLIC BOOK III
Neither is Phoenix, the tutor of ACHILLES, to be approved or deemed to have given his pupil good counsel when he told him that he should take the gifts of the Greeks and assist them ; but that without a gift he should not lay aside his anger. Neither will we believe or acknowledge ACHILLES himself to have been such a lover of money that he took Agamemnon’s gifts, or that when he had received payment he restored the dead body of Hector, but that without payment he was unwilling to do so. THE REPUBLIC BOOK III
Loving Homer as I do, I hardly like to say that in attributing these feelings to ACHILLES, or in believing that they are truly attributed to him, he is guilty of downright impiety. As little can I believe the narrative of his insolence to Apollo, where he says, THE REPUBLIC BOOK III