SOC. Do you ask me, whether I am able to prove it to you in a long harangue, such a one as you are accustomed to hear? I have no abilities in that way. But yet I should be able, as I think, to prove to you, that those pretensions of mine are not vain, if you would be willing but to do me one small piece of service.
ALC. If that service be not difficult to be done, I am willing.
SOC. Do you think it difficult, or not, to make answers to such questions as are proposed to you?
ALC. Not difficult. .
SOC. Be ready then to answer.
ALC. Do you then propose your questions.
SOC. May I propose them, with a supposition that you have those thoughts in your mind which I attribute to you?
ALC. Be it so, if you choose it; that I may know what further you have to say.
SOC. Well then. You have it in your mind, as I said, to appear in presence of the Athenians within a short time, with intention to harangue them and give them your advice. If therefore, when you are just ready to mount the rostrum, I were to stop you, and to say thus, “Since the Athenians are here met in assembly, on purpose to deliberate on some of their affairs, what, I pray you, are to be the subjects of their deliberation, now that you rise up to give them your counsel? Must not the subjects be such as you are better acquainted with than they?” what answer would you make me?
ALC. I certainly should answer, that the subjects were such as I knew better than others who were present.
SOC. On those subjects, then, which you happen to have knowledge in you are a good counsellor?
ALC. Without doubt.
SOC. Have you knowledge in those things only which you have either learnt from others, or found out yourself?
ALC. What things other than those is it possible that I should have any knowledge in?
SOC. And is it possible that ever you should have learnt, or have found out, any thing which you were not willing to learn, or to search out by yourself?
ALC. It is not.
SOC. And were you at any time willing to learn, or did you ever at any time seek to know, any things in which you imagined yourself to be already knowing?
ALC. No, certainly.
SOC. In those things which you now happen to know, was there once a time when you did not think yourself knowing?
ALC. That must have been.
SOC. Now, what the things are which you have learnt, I tolerably well know. But if you have been taught any thing without my knowledge, tell me what. To the best of my memory, you have been taught grammar, the gymnic exercises, and to play on stringed instruments of music: for on wind-instruments, besides, you refused to learnt This is the sum total of all your knowledge: unless you have learnt any thing else in some place or other, which I have not discovered: and I think, that neither by day nor yet by night did you ever stir out of doors but I was acquainted with all your motions.
ALC. ‘Tis true that I have not gone to any other masters than to such as taught the arts which you have mentioned.
SOC. Well then. When the Athenians are consulting together about the grammar of their language, how to write or speak it with propriety, at these times is it that you will rise up to give them your advice?
ALC. By Jove, not I.
SOC. But is it then when they are in debate about striking chords on the lyre?
ALC. By no means should I make a speech on such a subject.
SOC. It cannot be on the subject of wrestling neither: because they never use to deliberate of this subject in their public assemblies.
ALC. Certainly not.
SOC. On what subject, then, of their consultations is it that you intend the giving them your advice? It cannot be when building is the subject.
ADC. No, certainly.
SOC. Because in this case a builder would give them better advice than you could.
ALC. True.
SOC. Nor yet is it when they consult together concerning divination.
ALC. It is not.
SOC. For a diviner would in this case be a better counsellor than you.
ALC. Without doubt.
SOC. And that, whether he was a tall or a short man; whether his person was handsome or deformed; and whether his family was noble or ignoble.
ALC. How should it be otherwise?
SOC. For to give good advice in any case whatever, belongs, I suppose, only to a person skilled in the subject, and not to a fine gentleman.
ALC. Beyond all question.
SOC. And whether the man who gives them his advice be rich or poor, it will make no difference to the Athenians, when they are consulting about the health of the city; but they will always inquire after a physician only to consult with.
ALC. They will be right in so doing.
SOC. Now, on what subject is it, when they are met in consultation together, that you will do right in rising up and giving them your counsel?
ALC. ‘Tis when they are in consultation, Socrates, about their own affairs.
SOC. About increasing their navy, do you mean? what sort of vessels they should provide, and in what manner they should have them built?
ALC. I mean no such thing, Socrates.
SOC. Because you are ignorant, I presume, in the art of shipbuilding. Is not this the reason? Or is there any other, why you would choose in such a consultation to sit silent?
ALC. That is the only reason.
SOC. What affairs of their own then do you mean?
ALC. I mean, Socrates, when they are deliberating about the making war, or the making peace; or concerning any other affairs of state.
SOC. Do you mean, when they are deliberating on these points, with whom ’tis proper for them to make peace, and with whom to engage in war, and in what way ’tis proper to carry on that war? Is this what you mean?
ALC. It is.
SOC. And you will agree, that ’tis proper to make peace or war with those people with whom ’tis best so to do?
ALC. Certainly.
SOC. And at that time when ’tis best?
ALC. By all means.
SOC. And to continue it so long as ’tis best to continue it?
ALC. To be sure.
SOC. Now, suppose that the Athenians were deliberating about the exercise of wrestling, with what sort of persons it is proper to come to close quarters, and with whom to engage at arm’s length, and in what way, would you give the best counsel in this case, or would a master of the exercises?
ALC. Such a master, certainly.
SOC. Can you tell me now, what end such a master would have in his view, when he gave his counsel on these points, with whom it is proper to wrestle closely, and with whom not so? at what times it is proper, and in what manner? My meaning is to ask you these questions: Whether is it proper to wrestle closely with those persons with whom it is best so to wrestle, or is it not?
ALC. It is.
SOC. Whether as much also as is best?
ALC. As much.
SOC. Whether at those times too when ’tis best?
ALC. Without doubt.
SOC. But further: Ought not a singer, sometimes, in singing, to touch his lute, and to move his feet?
ALC. He ought.
SCX. Ought he not to do so at those times when ’tis best so to do?
ALC. Certainly.
SOC. And to continue the doing so as long as ’tis best to continue it?
ALC. I agree.
SOC. Well now. Since you agree with me that there is a best in both these actions, in fingering the lute whilst singing, and in the exercise of close wrestling, by what name call you that which is the best in fingering the lute? As that which is the best in wrestling I call gymnastical, what name now do you give to that which is best done in that other action?
ALC. I do not apprehend your meaning.
SOC. Try to copy after the pattern which I shall now give you. Supposing, then, that I had been asked this question, “In wrestling, how is that performed which is performed best?” I should answer, ‘Tis performed in every respect rightly. Now, in wrestling, that performance is right which is according to the rules of art. Is it not?
ALC. It is.
SOC. And the art, in this case, is it not gymnastic?
ALC. Without dispute.
SOC. I said, that that which is the best in wrestling is gymnastical.
ALC. You did.
SOC. And was is not well said?
ALC. I think it was.
SOC. Come then. Do you in like manner (for it would not ill become you likewise to discourse well) say, in the first place, What is the art, to which belong the playing on the harp, the singing, and the moving at the same time, rightly all; the whole of this art, by what name is it called? Are you not yet able to tell?
ALC. Indeed I am not.
SOC. Try in this way then. What goddesses are those who preside over this art?
ALC. The muses mean you, Socrates?
SOC. I do. Consider now, what name is given to their art – a name derived from them.
ALC. I suppose you mean music.
SOC. The very thing. What then is that which is performed rightly, according to this art? Just as in the other case I told you, that whatever was performed rightly according to the rules of that other art, was gymnastical; in this case now, after the same manner, whatever is performed agreeably to the rules of this art, how do you say it must be performed?
ALC. Musically, I think.